1997 Engine failure at 21k miles?

[NasT97]

Anyone out there w/ a '96 to '97 4.6 motor have a problem w/ a "rotational clicking" that coincides w/ engine rpm's? My engine is currently being pulled out of the car and torn down to find the source of a grinding and clicking noise the SVT dealer and tech cannot diagnose after 2 days of testing everything possible. I am obviously very uncomfortable w/ this process.

The engine only has 20,800 miles on it and the car is out of the warranty period BUT I just can't stomach that the engine may be bad at this few miles. I hope SVT, Ford, and the dealer would provide some sort of assitance here towards repairs or a new power plant.

Anyone ever hear of this happening to another Cobra owner or have any advice?

I am supposed to be at the SVTOA event at IRP next week and want to get this taken care of ASAP.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[cobraaph]

Wish I had a suggestion for that. Lets hope it is not something serious like a broken piston ring or something in the valvetrain. I've heard about occasional failures of the gears for the oil pump, but that would likely affect oil pressure. Maybe the water pump bearing is bad. I would think that the tech would have more ideas than I do. Maybe it hasn't been driven enough (my '97 is coming up on 123,000 miles). Has not even had the valve covers off so far (knock on wood).

I am signed up for the IRP On-Track. Hopefully the problem can be solved and you can make it there.

Al

[wadjet58]

we have two 97 cobras. 1 with 90k & never any trouble. 2nd with 30.6k,
3rd engine. #2 rod bearing probably if naturally aspirated, #7 rod if forced
feed. You probably let it sit for weeks w/o starting. very bad to let bearings
dry out. spins bearing on start up & ticks in 5 miles or so, followed by major
knock in 20 miles. after that crank breaks, rod comes though the pan.
NASCAR calls that a pan failure. fix that worked for us was stroked crank,
clevite bearing, manley rods & pistons. start it up at least very payday to keep it oiled. knock on wood its worked for me so far. good luck.

[NasT97]

Great guidance guys.....appreciated.
Have talked to service tech and he was going that way already....hopefully that is the problem and this thing is ready to go.

Thank you once again. SVTOA and this message forum really works!

Mike

[Ice_mn12]

hello all, I'm a brand new member of SVTOA, and a new driver of a white 97 cobra. I bought my baby in late August, with a mere 22k on the odometer. Exactly how common are these problems u are speaking of? My car has 24k on it now, and i drive it everyday, (it is my only car now), and i have not felt, nor heard anything unnatural, but after reading this thread I'm sure every little noise I hear is going to make me very nervous. Just a little reasurance that my engine is not about to explode is all i ask. :D

[BWTYPZN]

Ice mn12, Welcome to the world of owning a COBRA. Sorry to have scared you. If you don't leave it sitting unstarted for weeks at a time you shouldn't have any problems.. ....by the way I am signed in as myself tonight, when I replied before it was under my wifes log in...This whole family has been bitten by COBRA's, all the way down to my 4 yr old grandson....

[Ice_mn12]

Thank you for the reasurance, and for the welcome. As I said, I drive my car everyday, so hopefully i won't have a problem. Thanks again.

[SNAKEYE]

Anyone out there w/ a '96 to '97 4.6 motor have a problem w/ a "rotational clicking" that coincides w/ engine rpm's? My engine is currently being pulled out of the car and torn down to find the source of a grinding and clicking noise the SVT dealer and tech cannot diagnose after 2 days of testing everything possible. I am obviously very uncomfortable w/ this process.

The engine only has 20,800 miles on it and the car is out of the warranty period BUT I just can't stomach that the engine may be bad at this few miles. I hope SVT, Ford, and the dealer would provide some sort of assitance here towards repairs or a new power plant.

Anyone ever hear of this happening to another Cobra owner or have any advice?

I am supposed to be at the SVTOA event at IRP next week and want to get this taken care of ASAP.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Well, has there been any diagnosis?
'SNAKEYE' - 44k with a Vortech, and no clicking.

[NasT97]

For those that care this is what has happened to my 97 Cobra engine w/ only 21k miles on it......
In April I paid a local high performance shop that specialized in FRPP and other Mustang/Cobra specific parts a good chunk of change to install some March aftermarket performance pulleys among other performance parts that included FRPP headers, a BBK x-pipe, Brembo brakes, etc... To make a long story short, the pulley that attaches to the main engine crank was not tightened properly which allowed for "looseness" inside the engine and thus the crank was gouged and scored which caused an engine clicking that coincided w/ the engine rpm's. The engine had to be removed from the car, torn down, crank and all corresponding parts replaced, and I was handed a $5400.00 bill from my local SVT dealer. I had my local SVT dealer undertake the "engine click" cure process as I felt more comfortable w/ an SVT specific tech dealing w/ the problem. This is what they are standing on as the problem that caused the clicking. Just for the record, the car is out of warranty from Ford.
I approached the local performance shop that did the pulley installation and they of course deny any wrongdoing and tell me the SVT dealer is full of it. They will not refund me a dime and say that my SVT dealer is just laying off the blame for a defective engine on them. My question is why would the dealer do that when the engine is out of warranty and they could actually tell me "tough luck" dude...it happens! Why stand on my side and point a finger when you are not under any obligation? Then again, could the SVT dealer be covering for a defective engine in the '97 Cobra by deflecting blame to the performace shop?
All I know is that I have a huge bill for an severe engine problem that developed at only 21k miles and the fault is not mine. Ford & SVT are either covering for a bad 4.6L powerplant in '97 OR the performance shop made a huge installation mistake and is unwilling to step up to it. And to top that off, I missed the SVTOA event at IRP last weekend because of this mess.
Anyone have any thoughts here so I do not end up in small claims court? Maybe a similar experience? I hope this has not happened to any other SVT owners...this is "Car Hell"!!!

[cobraaph]

That really sucks, being caught in the middle like that. I would be reluctant to say that the powerplant in '97 (or any other year) is defective. While there may be isolated cases where an engine goes bad for no apparent reason, it seems to be more a function of abuse or too much boost for the internals, or some other application for which it was not designed. I think there are known weak areas that have been found over the years, but they should not be a factor unless the demands on the engine exceed the design parameters. As for myself, I have been running March pullies for almost 100,000 miles so far and have had no issues. The engine is only now exhibiting some slight oil leakage at the rear, and only when I am hard on it, like this past weekend at IRP. I did the pully install myself so I am pretty sure it was right. I'm wondering whether the "engine looseness" described would have been noticeable through a rough idle or excessive vibration at higher RPM's. Also, if the bolts on the crank pully were not tightened properly, wouldn't there be a greater liklyhood that the serpentine belt would wear out sooner?

I would ask the SVT dealer to draft a letter addressing the cause of the problem, whether the repair was needed at that time, and any other supporting information so that you can have a good idea where you stand. I don't know that the SVT dealer is neccessarily backing you on this one. You brought in a car that needed repair, waranty or not, and they did that. Assuming that their diagnosis was correct, all they are doing is pointing out the cause of the damage. If you eventually end up in court on this one, they may be willing to testify on your behalf, but that would be the most I would expect. You might even have to pay for their time in court. If you get a letter, and depending on what it says, you may want to show it to the owner of the performance shop and see what the response is. I would not expect them to write a check on the spot, but maybe, if you persist and bother them once a week or so, they may make an offer just so you will stop bugging them. Its worth a shot and at this point you have nothing to lose.

Also, I know shop time is expensive, but that bill is almost half the value of the car. That seems a little steep if all they ultimately did was replace the crank and bearings (I assume that they re-used the pistons and rods, etc.). You may want to review the charges to see if everything was accounted for correctly.

Good luck with this and, hopefully, the resolution will be in your favor.

Al Hermans

[PETSNKE]

I've heard of this happening before, but not with March pulleys since they piggy back to the original crank balancer/pulley. With Steeda and ASP underdrive pulleys the balancer/crank pulley is replaced and if it is not torqued properly it throws everything out of wack in the lower end of the motor.

[SNAKEYE]

Well, there are more than just a few of us out here who care.
I am not mechanic, but I have myself rebuilt, or aided in engine rebuilds, and there are difference in engine designs to control the "looseness" as I believe you've described it. I take it from the incorrectly tightened bolt description that the "looseness" was in the longitudinal direction of the crankshaft. Movement (looseness?) of the crankshaft in the direction of its length is called runout, and there are limits as to how much the crankshaft is allowed to move. The movement is usually controlled by thrust bearings, usually an integral part of the main bearing at the flywheel end of the crankshaft. The thrust bearing faces oppose forces generated when the clutch is operated, among others. Excessive clearance (due to over-machining the bearing journal or under-sizing the bearing shells) or thrust bearing face wear would allow the crankshaft to translate longitudinally. This is not a good thing for the relationship of connecting rods and main bearing caps which are not designed to come in contact with each other in the manner which would be occurring!
I am not at all familiar with the 4.6L engine's method to control runout of the crankshaft, but I doubt that a pulley bolt is the method employed. I would expect that the under-tightened bolt could itself loosen and lead to a loose pulley, which could lead to a wobbly pulley, which could make a clicking sound related to engine speed. I'd suspect the damage (short of throwing the pulley and serpentine belt) to be limited to the inside of the pulley bore, the outside of the crankshaft's first couple of inches, the offending loose bolt and its washer, and the Woodruff key and slot in the crankshaft.
I suspect that you may have had a dubious crankshaft runout situation with that engine since it was built, and that racing, with lots of torque and clutch action, aggrevated the situation to destruction.
If you do go back to the SVT dealer for written support of their findings, they need to use more technical terms than "looseness" to impress the installer of the pulley that you have technical expertise on your side, and any others who may get involved in the determination of a settlement.
In any event, best of luck with the repair job.

[NasT97]

After 3 weeks at Williams Ford in Berea, OH I picked up my car yesterday to the tune of $5800.00!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? 2 beefs w/ the dealer - one, they never offered me the option of a new engine and at this cost the difference in cost would have been minimal and - two, they grossly exceeded my final most recent instructions on repair cost of "$2-3,000 , just make it right". When they called to tell me it was close to being done they said $5400.00 and I about fell out of my chair. When I went to pick it up it had grown even more. I certainly have a problem w/ the cost when they never checked w/ me after my last instructions and they never offered me the option of a new engine which I likely would have taken. I do think they did a good job repairing what they believed was wrong ( scored crank, tensioners, and drive chains ) but they certainly made NO EFFORT to save me any money. I will be writing a letter to the general manager of the dealership telling this story and looking for some relief.

As far as the local performance shop ( M&R Automotive - Cleveland, OH )that installed the March pulley on the crank, they continue to deny they did anything wrong even after viewing the scored crank. They feel there is nothing wrong w/ the crank at all and it did not need to be replaced. I even told them about a Ford TSB ( that I got from another local SVT dealer ) that clearly states the procedure which needs to be followed when installing a performance pulley....Ford states in the TSB that "significant engine damage" can occur when a pulley is not tightened properly. These shop guys are former Williams Ford tech's w/ over 35 years combined experience - they should have been aware of this.

I spent yesterday checking w/ other SVT dealers in my area and showing them the replaced/damaged parts.....they agree w/ Williams Ford as to the cause of my engine clicking and damage being the improper install of the pulley BUT also state that Williams Ford / SVT did me no favors w/ the cost of the repair. They all felt it could have been done much, much cheaper.

To top this all off, I am now dealing w/ a check engine light that will not go off. It has been traced to the O2 sensors on the BBK x-pipe I had installed before all this happened. There was NO problem before Williams Ford got their hands on the car and pulled the engine, now I have a problem which they diagnosed as a bad cat. That simply is not possible as the BBK X has less than 500 miles on it but they simply dont want to hear that. Now what do I do? I guess I find another shop that will check the sensors out for me...more $$$! Maybe its time for that ( are you sitting down) Corvette!?

I know I am somewhat to blame here as you take a risk when you alter a car for performance BUT I have been taken for ride here and will be going after compensation from both Williams Ford and M&R Automotive. I just hope this happens w/out going to court.

I feel better now .... thanks for listening all..

:knock:

[maquino]

Take a look in the local Yellow Pages [or those of the nearest big city]. There are attorneys who specialize in automobile problems, and you may find one who knows exactly what consumer protection laws to invoke to help you out. Sometimes all it takes is a letter on attorney letterhead to make people become very reasonable very quickly.

Michael Aquino