Open Track Brake Upgrades?

[puzzle13]

Has anybody done any big brake upgrades for the open track on their 03 or 04 Cobra. I was looking into the Brembo Cobra R setup with Hawk pads or the StopTech 332mm Brake Upgrade with Hawk pads. Has anyone done either of these? Have you had good results? I fried my stock brakes at CMP this March and was looking into upgrading. The StopTech has the thicker 2-piece rotors and the bigger pads, but are the results worth the cost and do they help with the heat problem? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[stangluvr]

I have the Cobra R big brake kit and it makes a considerable difference. You get more even pressure and brake wear. I would go with something a little more aggressive than the Hawk HPS pads if you were burning up the stock ones. Also, I would avoid cross-drilled rotors and I've had bad luck with slotted ones as well. The stock brembo rotors have worked well for me. I don't get much life out of any of them but the stock rotors seem to last the longest. The 2 piece rotors are lighter, but WAY expensive. If you've got the cash I suppose... Just to replace the Braking surface is $200 plus.

Good luck!

[good dawg]

Air, Air, Air.....
Brake ducts.
Before you go and spend tons of money get your self some Real Good Race pads(Hawk-DTC-70), brake ducts, stainless lines and an extra set of Regular Brembo Rotors from Tire Rack.
Keep the pads and rotors for track only, switch them at the track, do not drive them on the street.
Break in procedures for Race pads can be tricky.
Remember more brakes=More heat

[stangluvr]

Very good point. I have brake ducts on mine as well and forgot to mention them. Yes, there are several companies out there that sell an assembly that replaces the stock dust shield with one that you can attach a brake cooling duct to. Some people opt to just remove the factory dust shield and point the duct at the rotor. I suppose it just depends on what you want. Personally I have the Kenny Brown duct plates, but those could be pretty hard to find right about now. There are others out there though. As a general rule of thumb, brake ducts are highly recommended.

I also recommend the same pads. (Hawk DTC-70) They have great modulation and stop well.

[puzzle13]

I appreciate the help! I have brake ducts that I believe I got from Liverpool Performance ... same kit as offered by most other places. I had recently bought slotted rotors from Carbotech for just the track and bought their pads for the front & back. I took them to VIR in February and they were great. At CMP in March I had big problems. The fluid boiled and it never had before. The front rotors cracked after 1 & 1/2 days and the banjo bolts on the back of the calipers worked themselves loose. Prior to this I had been on street tires & pads and never had any problems. I know the pads & tires increase speed and heat, but that was ridiculous. I personally think the Carbotech pads were either too abrasive or too aggressive. I am going to step back a notch on the pad type (HT-10's or Blacks from Hawk) and see what that does. Maximum Motorsports told me that the Brembo Cobra R kit was good, but for more track use the StopTech ones were much better. They said the thicker rotors, bigger pad surface, and caliper design was a huge difference. I know that the other Brembo upgrades and the Baer upgrades also go to the thicker 2 piece rotors. I called everyone, but nobody will tell me how much more heat resistance the thicker 2 piece rotors can stand. And when the rotors are 2.5 to 4 times the cost of regular one piece Brembo rotors I just wonder. I just hate to switch and have to trash my good street rotors if the results are not going to equal the price. StopTech rotors cost $250.00 each and that doesn't include the hat.

I am going to VIR with the Cobra Club at the end of June and have to get something prior to then as I only have stock street brakes right now.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SVTIM]

I am still on the stock brake system on my 97. I have been using PFC racing pads, 201 compound I believe. They have lasted twice as long as the Hawk blue compound I have used in the past. You didnt say if you had changed your brake fluid or not. You should flush between most events. Im using ATE blue or yellow. It's reasonable price wise, and comes in metal containers so it can be stored. I have riddin in a friends 03. His speeds are much higher and he has experienced the same things you have. He has finally gone out and found an aluminum block.

[bhartman]

Here's some questions for you:

How serious are you on the track?
How hard are you pushing it?
What tracks are you running on?

Your #1 enemy is HEAT. Different driving/track situations produce different levels of heat. Slower tracks I run Hawk HP Plus. Faster tracks I run Hawk Blue. I once ran Hawk Blue on a slow (cooler) track and totally ate a set of rotors in 2 days. I tried Hawk HP Plus on a fast track and went through a set in a single day!

How much are you willing to spend?

#1 Brake ducts & S/S Brake Lines. You should also consider a high temp brake fluid. I'm using ATE Blue & Amber. I switch colors between flushes, which makes flushing easier. I just flush until the new color comes through.

#2 Larger Calipers - I was looking at the Wilwood 6 piston kit ~$1800. Really nice kit. In the end, my budget dictated the Cobra "R" (Brembo) kit. ~$800.

I've run the Brembo's at Summit Point & Watkins Glen and noticed a considerable difference. Didn't notice any difference on the street (low heat).

#3 2 piece Rotors. Unless you are super serious and want to reduce heat & weight, I personally have found that the best bargain is the stock Brembos ($62 each at Tire Rack).

I run 2 sets of rotors & pads (track & street). This allows me to properly bed the pads (track & street) to the rotors. I have found that keeping the pads matched to the rotors I have significantly reduced my rotor wear.

Another thing I LOVE about the Brembo calipers, over the stock Cobra calipers, is brake pad changes. With the Brembos, just push put 2 pins and you're there. As you know, the stocks are a PAIN!

Good luck!

[puzzle13]

Well, I have the time and money to go to about 3 track events per year. So far I have been to VIR in Virginia and to CMP in SC. CMP tends to really run hot. I always change the brake fluid and have been using Valvoline Synthetic without any problems until this year. I was recommended to go to the Ford brake fluid! Last year at CMP I ran Hawk HPS Plus pads and went through the front pads completely in 2 days and did not even use all of my track time. I was on street tires and never had overheating or disc cracking issues. This year I changed to track tires & pads with separate rotors. At VIR in Feb with the temps at around 50 or less all was great. At CMP in March with temps in the mid 80's all went haywire. I would like to continue to do 3-4 events per year, but do not have an unlimited budget. I am leaning towards the Cobra R setup due to cost. I looked at the Wilwood, Baer, Brembo, & StopTech 6 piston setups. All for about $1900.00 - $2900.00 with 2 piece rotors that run from $230.00 - $450.00 each. I am also deciding on pads. Recommended were the Hawk DTC70's. I have brake ducts and tried to go to stainless lines, but had leakage problems. With the kits I get the stainless lines.

Am I serious ... as much as my budget & schedule can afford, which is 2-4 track weekends per year.

Thanks

[Sonic Cobra]

I put on the Brembo Cobra R kit this spring. Cost of replacement rotors was a big consideration. I too can manage only 2 or 3 on track events per year.I ran at Summit Point Shenandoah with the Galpher pads that came with it. Overheated the pads on the last session on Sunday even with the cooling ducts.
I will try them out at Watkins Glen in June, with Carbotech XP-12's and dedicated track rotors.

[shlbygt]

Well, I have the time and money to go to about 3 track events per year. So far I have been to VIR in Virginia and to CMP in SC. CMP tends to really run hot. I always change the brake fluid and have been using Valvoline Synthetic without any problems until this year. I was recommended to go to the Ford brake fluid! Last year at CMP I ran Hawk HPS Plus pads and went through the front pads completely in 2 days and did not even use all of my track time. I was on street tires and never had overheating or disc cracking issues. This year I changed to track tires & pads with separate rotors. At VIR in Feb with the temps at around 50 or less all was great. At CMP in March with temps in the mid 80's all went haywire. I would like to continue to do 3-4 events per year, but do not have an unlimited budget. I am leaning towards the Cobra R setup due to cost. I looked at the Wilwood, Baer, Brembo, & StopTech 6 piston setups. All for about $1900.00 - $2900.00 with 2 piece rotors that run from $230.00 - $450.00 each. I am also deciding on pads. Recommended were the Hawk DTC70's. I have brake ducts and tried to go to stainless lines, but had leakage problems. With the kits I get the stainless lines.

Am I serious ... as much as my budget & schedule can afford, which is 2-4 track weekends per year.

Thanks
Not intending to offend, but have you attended a driving school before or are you a self taught open tracker? Technique plays a big part in how your brakes will last and respond to hard driving. Newer OT drivers tend to overuse their brakes, often at inappropriate places on the track, which will needlessly over heat the braking system. Boiling the fluid with air ducts can either be the result of serious heat and/or old fluid in the system. Since you are changing the fluid, then the heat is probably coming from the extra grip from the track tires. Cracking rotors is often the result of not properly heat cycling the rotors before track use or seriously overheating them.
If you haven't gone to a track event before with competent in-car and classroom instruction or haven’t had an advanced instructor critique your driving lately, I would do that first before spending money on brake upgrades.
If you are a knowledgeable seasoned open tracker then the suggestions posted in this thread are appropriate.
My choice was the Wilwood 6 pistons. I came across a nearly new, used set for cheap and have been very happy with them.

[puzzle13]

I have only been attending the Open Track events for the past few years and have had instructors in the car every weekend. I am sure that my technique needs improvement and that is why I continue to attend. As you said, improper use hurts, and I am getting better on that as I drive at more events. I was mainly just trying to get an improved brake system without wasting money that I didn't need to. If the 2 piece rotors and more expensive systems were just leaps and bounds ahead of the others I would invest in them. As it seems, most are still running the one piece rotors unless they are doing more serious racing more often throughout the year. I just know that the 03 & 04 Cobras are hard on their brakes.

[SVTIM]

I have only been attending the Open Track events for the past few years and have had instructors in the car every weekend. I am sure that my technique needs improvement and that is why I continue to attend. As you said, improper use hurts, and I am getting better on that as I drive at more events. I was mainly just trying to get an improved brake system without wasting money that I didn't need to. If the 2 piece rotors and more expensive systems were just leaps and bounds ahead of the others I would invest in them. As it seems, most are still running the one piece rotors unless they are doing more serious racing more often throughout the year. I just know that the 03 & 04 Cobras are hard on their brakes.

Exactly, the 03/04's are harder on brakes. I would seriously consider the ATE fluid. Its very easy to flush because of the color difference. And it has a higher boiling point. My friends 03 had brembo's on and he fried them too! I guess I would buy the best brakes I could afford. For me, thats the brembos. I would really look at removing some weight off the front end

[good dawg]

What is a Banjo Bolt?
If you are talking about the bolts that hold your caliper bracket to the spindle then you should have torqued them to like 85 foot lbs.(I don't have my manual with me)
The synthetic brake fluid has a boiling point of 500 deg which is the same as the new Ford fluid. The old Ford fluid was 550 deg. You might want to upgrade to a fluid that can go at least 550 deg.

The type of pads you choose will make the world of difference but you must season your rotors and bed in the pads.

Check out this link for more info.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/w...brakedisk.shtml

Sound like you are just going to spend money like most Mustang Crazed owners.

Your PBR calipers, Brake ducts, Tire rack cheep brembo rotors and a good pad will stop you car just fine......but you must take the time to get the transfer layer of the pads to new seasoned rotors. It is not an easy or exact process.

[puzzle13]

Banjo Bolt - this is what I have always heard it called. It is the bolt that attaches the brake line to the back of the calipers. Mine worked themselves loose, heat?, for the first time.

[good dawg]

That's what I love about these forums....Learn something every day, Thanks!

[puzzle13]

Well, I ended up going with the Stop-Tech 13" Big Brake Kit. I opted for this due to the heavy duty calipers, easy pad changes, and the thicker 2-piece rotors. Those rotors are much beefier than the stock ones. I will install soon and test them out at VIR at the end of June with the Cobra Club. Thanks to all of you for your info!!!!!!!!!

[CPViolation]

I have Brembo GT's four piston calipers. Overkill on the street but are great for OT.
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3015/dsc1522hi6.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2203/dsc1713og5.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8995/dsc1705qs0.jpg

[redfirecobra]

[QUOTE=CPViolation]I have Brembo GT's four piston calipers. Overkill on the street but are great for OT.
[QUOTE]

Whats the difference between the GT's and the Cobra R kit? Also did the kit come with better rear brakes? Does anyone know of a good kit that also upgrades the rear brakes?

[CPViolation]

[QUOTE=CPViolation]I have Brembo GT's four piston calipers. Overkill on the street but are great for OT.
[QUOTE]

Whats the difference between the GT's and the Cobra R kit? Also did the kit come with better rear brakes? Does anyone know of a good kit that also upgrades the rear brakes?
Four piston calipers and 14" rotors. SS brake lines on all four corners.
You have to upgrade to 18" wheels and tires.
Brembo rear upgrades are very expensive (If they are available). The EB and sensor get in the way.
I installed slotted rotors and Bullitt calipers.
70% of braking comes from the front.
Jeff

[redfirecobra]

Aren't the bullitt calipers the same as the cobras except red?

And then the only difference between the Cobra R Brembo and the Brembo GT is the Two piece 14" Rotors?

How much was the Brembo GT kit and what is the part number if you dont mind?

Thanks.

[CPViolation]

Aren't the bullitt calipers the same as the cobras except red?

And then the only difference between the Cobra R Brembo and the Brembo GT is the Two piece 14" Rotors?

How much was the Brembo GT kit and what is the part number if you dont mind?

Thanks.
Yes, I traded-in the stock black ones + some cash for the new Bullitt calipers with Hawk pads. Guess I could of bought black Brembos, I like the red ones.. It's the only semi-bling I have which are really stock. (rears) I don't like all the funky exterior mods some folks do to their cars. Personal taste I guess........

Do Cobra R brakes 4 piston calipers? I read the R specs, It said R calipers are the two piston version Brembos.
The fronts cost between $2800.00 - $3200.00 just for the front Calipers, slotted rotors and stainless steel brake lines on all four corners and installation.
Edit: After digging up more info, it said the R front brake ARE 4 piston calipers. Funny one set of specs say 2 piston the others say 4 piston. They look like four piston to me.
I'm not sure if the R brakes are the same model as the GT's, although I think they are the same model that come with the GT500.
http://www.raceshopper.com/images/brembo_big_brake_kits_price_list.pdf
Jeff

[CPViolation]

DP
Sorry

[rheacerdave]

For what its worth...
I've seen brake problems with folks that left foot brake. REALLY hard on equipment. Likewise, using too aggressive a pad and not braking ENOUGH can really eat up rotors.
I'm a SCCA club racer, certainly not a pro, but I had a National license in 2005 (didn't get to do enough races last year to keep it. We were moving a hospital and were really busy).
I've been roadracing Mustangs for over 10 years. Raced Formula Vees and Formula Fords before that. I also instruct for track days, SCCA time trials, as well as run hillclimbs and autocross.
Wilwood rotors with Hawk HT-14's served me well for many years using either Ford HD or Wilwood 600 fluid on my A/Sedan car.
I now have the DTC-70 front and HP+ rear.
I use Hawk HP+ on stock rotors on my Cobra, about as aggressive as I would get on the street.
Beefier rotors are never a bad choice, but seriously in A/Sedan we can't use bigger than 12.25" (I use them on all four corners-Wilwoods with PBR calipers).
This setup works fine for 45 minute races which are the norm in SCCA-SARRC.
Neither VIR or CMP should be that hard on brakes. I actually used Hawk Blues at VIR no problem. Turn 1 is the hardest on brakes. CMP, I brake really hard into 11 and maybe into 1.
As mentioned before, be sure your pads match your use. Hawk HPS work really well on the street and autocrossing. HP+ are really a tad aggressive on the street- expect lots of dust, squeal, and rotor wear, especially if you are only using them in town. Like grabbing the rotor with 2 rocks.
Likewise the Hawk Black, HT, and DTC may or may not stop you on the street. I know I have to really watch in the paddock. They just don't grab till hot.
As far as the multipiston route, you can only generate so much braking pressure with the brake pedal. Long time since college physics, but there is a formula out there somewhere. The more pistons give more even pad pressure and yes, as you elongate the pad surface you transfer more heat, but at a point you have to really start adding pedal pressure to make up for the extra surface area. There was even a try at 8 piston, but I guess no driver had the leg power to make the things work. Single piston, all the pressure is centered and you have a beveled pad as one end gets more heat/wear as opposed to the other edge. 2 piston you have pressure on the leading edge and the trailing edge. Good. 4 piston, you have opposing pressure, but still front and trailing. Also good.

What is a Banjo Bolt?
If you are talking about the bolts that hold your caliper bracket to the spindle then you should have torqued them to like 85 foot lbs.(I don't have my manual with me) Sounds right, but not the "banjo" bolts. As mentioned, "Banjos" are the fittings at the end of your brake line. The fitting for banjo's have a soft copper washer above and below. I'm thinking it is closer to 1/3 of that. Doesn't take much to seal them.
See Step 4.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/instructionsheets/FordInstShtM-2300-S.pdf

[lkeller]

Exactly. I use Eradispeed 13" inch rotors, PF 101 pads, and the stock PBR calipers in the front. Sure the rotors are expensiv ($500 a set), however the combination of the 3 really works well. And the rotors last!