All The Problems: Survey?

[Cobra40]

It's a fact that there are a lot of problems with the '03's...

I would like to suggest a survey, don't know exactly how to format it, but trying to associate how the car is driven, i.e., drag, road racing, autoX, spirited street, etc, relative to the mods installed and the problems occuring.

Also, its a given that this car is set up for "handling", not so much straight line 1/4 mile. How many out there have the vibration, ticking, and other drivetrain noises, after 1) 1/4 miling, or 2) road racing, autoX, or 3) simply spirited street driving?

Things like that.

Given that these cars are marketed and built as "race cars", normal spirited street driving should not cause any problems, but since cars that are "raced" do break and must be maintained, we shouldn't be surprised when problems present themselves. We can't expect to race without ANY problems occuring.

Now, some of the problems are occuring in some cars from minute 1, some after a few miles, some after many miles. Some cars aren't having any problems. Of the timing parameters above, which are driving hard, which are not? What I'm looking for here is whether there is a propencity toward a problem that sometimes show up immediately or only after performance driving.

Maybe if we, the end user, can cross-reference where the problem is with how the car is driven and with what mods, we can accomplish something Ford hasn't been able to do...fix these expensive cars. With the research supporting our claims, we will have more clout and not look like "whiners" (as some service techs describe us).

Any ideas on how to format such a survey?

[dwtalso]

I think you should do the survey if you'd like but I have to ask some questions.


Originally posted by Cobra40
It's a fact that there are a lot of problems with the '03's...

Compared to what? Compared to the '99? Pheh! We don't know problems. Compared to the '01? Pheh, again, ping would be my worst nightmare on this motor.

Each model year seems to have had a few issues, however, I would not characterize it as " a lot", compared to other cars in this class. Also, as I imply above, there's the question of severity versus quantity. Any survey is going to have to try quantify/qualify this aspect of the data.


I would like to suggest a survey, don't know exactly how to format it, but trying to associate how the car is driven, i.e., drag, road racing, autoX, spirited street, etc, relative to the mods installed and the problems occuring.

Also, its a given that this car is set up for "handling", not so much straight line 1/4 mile. How many out there have the vibration, ticking, and other drivetrain noises, after 1) 1/4 miling, or 2) road racing, autoX, or 3) simply spirited street driving?

Things like that.

Given that these cars are marketed and built as "race cars", normal spirited street driving should not cause any problems, but since cars that are "raced" do break and must be maintained, we shouldn't be surprised when problems present themselves. We can't expect to race without ANY problems occuring.

I'm going to have to disagree a little here. Ford does not market the '03 Cobra as a "race car". A performance car, perhaps a sports car, but I've never actually seen their marketing claim this to be a race car. I think these cars are built stoutly enough for some forms of racing, and I believe that Ford has pointed this out, but even the owner's addendum makes it clear that they don't feel it's a race car.

I only point this out because it will affect how you analyze some of your data. Especially since the Ford warranty and Cobra owner's guide pretty much make it clear the putting this car on a track ends most of the owner's claims for warranty service for most of the powertrain and suspension.


Now, some of the problems are occuring in some cars from minute 1, some after a few miles, some after many miles. Some cars aren't having any problems. Of the timing parameters above, which are driving hard, which are not? What I'm looking for here is whether there is a propencity toward a problem that sometimes show up immediately or only after performance driving.

Maybe if we, the end user, can cross-reference where the problem is with how the car is driven and with what mods, we can accomplish something Ford hasn't been able to do...fix these expensive cars. With the research supporting our claims, we will have more clout and not look like "whiners" (as some service techs describe us).

Any ideas on how to format such a survey?

I wish you good luck on this project. Some '99 owners tried this. Some '01 owners tried this, too. I hope it works this time but I don't see where this will make Ford behave any differently than they already do. However, I think you can supply the results to the aftermarket guys, who are interested (sometimes, it seems, more interested than Ford ;) ) in fixing things too, and give them a picture of where to concentrate their current efforts.

[Waltman]

I hate to say this, but I believe most us (like me) got suckered into the '03 Cobra by specs alone. Personally, as soon as I read the specs, I said WOW, 390 HP and 390 lbs of torque, 6 sp, and supercharged, frankly that was all I needed to know. Now don't get me wrong, the '03 IS THE BEST COBRA EVER, and the best looking as well, the SVT people have done an outstanding job, same old fox body yet it handles like a race car, something like a man on Viagra:D

Granted, the car has problems, in my case they have been fixed (squeaky driver side window and condensation in left fog lamp) Noise (all kinds)?, vibration? notchy shifter? Hey, IT'S A FORD!! HELLO!! some things never change. You don't want any of them?, go get a LEXUS, BENZ, BMW, etc. Besides, do you honestly want to keep the aftermarket people out of business?

[Cobra40]

The 03's do have problems, lots of the them. Haven't you been reading this forum? Majority of the posts are problems. You can accept it, and pay to fix'em yourself (see below) or, not. I choose not. I'll see what I can do on my own.


[i] Hey, IT'S A FORD!! HELLO!! some things never change. You don't want any of them?, go get a LEXUS, BENZ, BMW, etc. Besides, do you honestly want to keep the aftermarket people out of business? [/B]

I expect ford to pay for their engineering problems. Expecting the aftermarket to correct the problem and then pay for it yourself...kinda naive. Sounds like some of the problems are caused by aftermarket mods.

Saying "Hey, IT'S A FORD"... maybe about a skeaky window, right, but an internal engine problem. Ticking could be an indicater of something binine or serious which could eventually cause an internal parts failure, or, the stalling problem sounds pretty serious to me. And these problems are not isolated.

I do have a foriegn luxury car, (and a PowerStroke Excursion, thank you very much). Luxury cars have problems too. However, they get fixed! The service is EXELLENT!!! My car has been in the shop for a week before they even pulled service bulletins.

Ford markets prefered customer service to SVT owners...haven't seen even "common" service or attention to the problems yet.

The ford engineers need to pay attention to this forum and get some hints as to what's happening so that they can fix the probs.

If anyone else other than the "can't do" attitudes have any constructive comments or advice, please pipe in. Don't have time for the "can't do's. I want to drive my car, not wait for it to get fixed.

Anything can be fixed. There just needs to be an effort.

If not thru a survey (it would be pretty cumbersome), then what?

[Beabout]

Sounds like a plan to me Corbra40, don't have a clue how to set it up.

[Waltman]

That's why I bought the "Premium Extended Warranty". My two problems have been fixed under warranty, any future problems I also hope Ford to fix. And am not planning on any mods, the car is fine as it is now. Probably once all the bugs are cleared and I put more miles in it, may do some exhaust job The after market can do fine without my hard earned $$.

I had a jap luxury car as well which I got after I traded in my '94 'Stang GT Conv, and which I did not hesitate trading for the new Cobra. Heck, the Ford dealer took my car and I did not give them a single penny :D straight swap (makes me wonder), out of the dealership in an hour or so.

Boards like this one are good since it alert others of problems that may concern you and how to approach them, and for that I thank Greg and et al.

Your dealer can't fix your problems? Talk to an attorney and hope they can apply the lemon law. I know, since I work with one arbitrator/attorney for the Better Business Bureau, and believe me the problems listed here are nothing compared to the horror stories I've heard from other owners, from cars ranging from A to Z, luxury or not.

[rachrse]

Not much help here so far I have not had any problems with my 03 just alot of fun, and belive me I don't baby the car I run the car hard. Rachrse

[Cobra40]

Well, got mine back from the dealer, finely.

Was in for engine ticking & rear whine. Still have em. All I got outa that dealer stay was a dirty car driven in the rain!!!:mad:

They heard the ticking in the left catconvert. So replaced that. Duh! don't think there's any moving parts in that!

They talked with ford hotline, they didn't know either what was causing it.

Service rep said to ask ya'll. Here it goes...

Ticking from left side. Hear it best from under as opposed to above engine. Increase/decrease in frequency directly with rpms.

Rear whine. Is this the "vibration" everyone has? Cant feel it, just sounds like a wheel outa line. Constant. Alignment checks out within parameters, but adjusted closer to specs. Still there.

Anyone else having the ticking, or this an isolated occurance?

[dwtalso]

Originally posted by Cobra40
Well, got mine back from the dealer, finely.

Was in for engine ticking & rear whine. Still have em. All I got outa that dealer stay was a dirty car driven in the rain!!!:mad:


Well, I'm not defending any dealer :) but mine won't touch my car's paint unless I ask them to. I don't want those goobers rubbing my paint down with whatever filthy paper towel they use ;). K, maybe they are actually better than that...but not much.


They heard the ticking in the left catconvert. So replaced that. Duh! don't think there's any moving parts in that!


No moving parts but they do tick. It usually means that the material inside has come loose or fractured.

More below...


They talked with ford hotline, they didn't know either what was causing it.

Service rep said to ask ya'll. Here it goes...

Ticking from left side. Hear it best from under as opposed to above engine. Increase/decrease in frequency directly with rpms.


Is this a hot tick or does it happen at any temperature? I have a benign tick at any temperature, from under the car, that is coming from the lower blower pulley. It's not very loud and I think it's just a result of the belt/pulley interaction.

Is it a soft, breathy tick that's louder when cold? Those are usually exhaust leaks that seal as the motor heats and the interfaces expand.

If it's a hot tick and is definately at the cat it could be the material inside or even a loose shield. On my '99 I had a cat shield come loose, but that was more of a rattle :).

Finally, if you are not sure of where it's coming from, exactly, use a "stethoscope" to probe around and localize it better. I use a long box-end wrench to the ear.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of ticks under this car: fuel injectors, valves, cam followers, piston slap, etc.. Unless it's a pretty loud tick it's often hard to find it precisely. You might try it with the hood up and down, this will often change the characteristics enough to help localize it. You already know what side it's on, but I park next to walls to help get more sound reflected at me. This often helps pinpoint the side of the car.

I went through all of this diagnosing the "bad" tick that my car developed. It was the cam tower torque issue (there's a service note on this one from Ford). It was subtle and took a lot of probing to localize it under the valve cover because it sounded pretty loud under the car and seemed to eminate from the left front fender well the best.


Rear whine. Is this the "vibration" everyone has? Cant feel it, just sounds like a wheel outa line. Constant. Alignment checks out within parameters, but adjusted closer to specs. Still there.

As for the rear end, the vibration is typically felt through the seat of the pants and is clearly a vibration not just a sound. I don't think anyone has described it as a whine. That sounds more like the differential, like maybe the gearing installation is out of spec. It could also be something rubbing.

[Cobra40]

This tick happens at all times.

It is sharp and distinct. Not real loud but noticable from inside the car and more distinct from under the car on the left side than it is from above the engine with hood up.

I'll check things out based on your comments. Let you know if/where it seems to be localized.

Thanks for the input.

[Greg@SVTOA]

We've given you folks a place to discuss your cars and experiences with them.
There are many posts that aren't exactly flattering to the company. Has anyone come jumping in here and said "HEY! You can't post that here!" NO.
The comments here are being read by persons other then just the general membership.

Some of things posted by the thread author are a bit general and also somewhat unfair as far as lumping all Ford dealers and technicians into one classification, and that's not right, IHMO. If you are having a problem with getting things corrected, it may be a reflection on the dealership and the employees they hire, as an independently owned company. Ford does not hire the technicians, the dealership does. Perhaps trying a different dealer may yield different results. This may be a hassle, but it's something to try. The difference in how one dealership operates vs the next can be dramatic, and all Ford can do as a company is respond to customer comments about the experiences customers are having with the franchised dealerships. Ford spends a great deal of money on research- Do you mean to tell me you have never received a quality control survey from Ford regarding your new purchase? I have owned many, many Fords over the years, I have always been sent detailed surveys from the company, asking my impressions of the vehicle as well as the dealership.

These systems are already in place. However, many people do not take the time to properly fill out the surveys and return them.

If you have had the company send you a quality survey, (and the chances of that are near 100%) and you simply tossed it in the trash, then you are not doing your part to accomplish the very things you seek to have me do here on this website. (not saying you have done this, my comments are 'for example')

There are systems in place to track problems with vehicles. The entire worldwide network of Ford dealers is connected to the factory via computers. Every vehicle that is brought to a Ford dealer for warranty work is logged into the system. If there is a TSB on the car, the dealer will find it. Also, all the information on customer complaints is stored in databases and reported to the persons responsible for keeping track of these things. This is how recalls and updates are created- thru the process of finding out just exactly what is going on out there.

Lastly, you have purchased the first supercharged Cobra offered by Ford. Although they have years of experience with the supercharged Lightning, the fact is, this is a "new" model and there are going to be problems no matter what. It's somewhat common to see a model evolve over the course of a few model years. The next model year of a new offering often will be a bit refined ffrom the first year offering. This is true no matter what company is involved.

You are free to post whatever your experiences are with your car, however, the company already has powerful systems in place to determine what is happening out there, perhaps much more so then you realize.

[Beabout]

Here is my .02

I have never heard of a dealership being sanctioned for not doing the right thing based on FoMoCo survey process. If, in fact, Ford has told its FRANCISE dealers to void warranties on these cars for things like exhaust or air filter then the problem does not lay with the FRANCISE dealers but with Ford itself.

I have, thank god, not had any warranty issues as yet. However, when there is smoke there is fire. It shouldn't matter one bit to a dealer about warranty service. They get there bucks back from Ford for warranty work.

If there are problems why not just admit it or say there are none, to the owners, and get things right. A TSB or any other Ford to Dealer communication does not communicate to the owners.

I don't particularly care to be admonished by a system administrator over an issue about my purchase or interaction with other owners.

If FORD SVT are such hot dogs then let them respond to issues on this form.

Greg: Thanks for a great way to vent our feelings.

SVT: Thanks for car that kept me from buying a C5.

[dwtalso]

Ok, this no flame, just friendly discussion :). I'm just beating thoughts out on the keyboard because this stuff has always bothered me too.

That said... (and it's long...I know...smack me :) )...


Originally posted by Beabout
Here is my .02

I have never heard of a dealership being sanctioned for not doing the right thing based on FoMoCo survey process. If, in fact, Ford has told its FRANCISE dealers to void warranties on these cars for things like exhaust or air filter then the problem does not lay with the FRANCISE dealers but with Ford itself.

We as customers are faced with several issues here. First, Ford has almost no say in who sells their cars or how they sell them. Truly. If you look closely at your state laws you will quickly discover that a) the dealer lobby is probably in the top two, if not the first, richest and most influential in the state; b) the laws in your state protect the dealers and their community from you, me, and Ford. In most states, Ford has no say about who gets which dealership; the current dealerships have this power. They are organized, collusive, and absolutely, positively non-competitive.

Second, Ford is into making big profits. Period. Welcome to capitalism. One of the only things that Ford has any say over with respect to it's relationships with dealers is the time allotted for warranty work. Warranty work is a loss item for Ford and, over time, they've strived to balance cost versus quality and make cars with the highest quality for a given target cost (a later debate on their success/failure). This minimizes warranty work. In line with this, they also attempt to minimize warranty service times through design of the vehicle, design of diagnostic and service equipment, and training. So, Ford has the power, over time, to justify reducing the service time indicated for warranty items. Sometimes, however, it seems they do it without real justification.

Dealers hate this but they haven't figured out how to get rid of it. However, it's the customer that gets it in the end. Dealers that do jobber shops tend to have techs who don't want to do warranty work because they always seem to go over the spec'd time and they don't get paid for that "overtime". They tend to do sloppy work. Dealers that suck it up and make up the time feel the need to regain that consideration by exploiting their customers more.

But what's Ford to do? If they extended warranty service times and weren't picky about service items, dealers would sit back and soak it up. Every noise would result in something broken. While their answer may not be totally friendly, I don't see how we'd all win that way either.

And so now here we are. With a specialty market, niche vehicle that's performance oriented. If Ford had their way they'd sell it without a warranty. But they can't, in all reality, do that. However, they *can* push the edge of the envelope when it comes to deciding what gets service and what doesn't. The law says they can't simply void warranties because of aftermarket parts but they've got plenty of room to deny service calls.

How much of this is Ford, though? Too many dealers are out there who don't even consult Ford. They simply spew out the word "void". I think it makes them more money that way because it gives them a little more freedom to gouge the customer, since the Ford warranty payment is pretty much a fixed fee.

Of those that are denied by Ford representatives, I have seen very few that were simply thrown out, out of hand. Most had some combination of factors: clear abuse, poor installation, etc., *plus* the aftermarket part. I know that with the '99's and '01's there were plenty of fights between owners of *stock* vehicles and Ford representatives, but the reps saw other indications: mostly track duty. It's a done deal at that point.

Counter to this, however, I know of as many or more who got one (or even more) motors without hassle or argument. Some fo these cars even had aftermarket parts. This would imply to me that there's more to the horror stories than is spoken of by the authors and that we don't ever seem to know all the data.

What's answer? I dunno. The only real solution seems to be to get your state legislators to forgo the money they get from the dealer lobbies and overturn the anti-competitive laws in each state. Let Ford start opening real Ford stores. If dealers were truly competitive we would still be having similar disicussions but in the end one would have many more choices of where to go to get *good* service. And *that* would be a Force for Good :).


I have, thank god, not had any warranty issues as yet. However, when there is smoke there is fire. It shouldn't matter one bit to a dealer about warranty service. They get there bucks back from Ford for warranty work.

In principle, I agree. However, I think it's much complicated than that. I don't think all dealers work the same way and I believe that many operate under the impression that they don't make enough from warranty work. Some probably do make enough money but there's got to be costs for them.


If there are problems why not just admit it or say there are none, to the owners, and get things right. A TSB or any other Ford to Dealer communication does not communicate to the owners.

Now here's a thought. I think SVT and Ford *almost* have it right. Just a little more and (maybe) *bingo*.

I think the guys on the hotline are great, but they need to be made into *real* liasons between owners, dealers, and SVT/Ford. They need access to real information and the authority to divulge it. Give them the ability to ferret out *any* piece of information in a timely fashion and disseminate it. Make it organized and coherent and easily accessible. Add to that the training and authority to liason between the three sides (owner-dealer-Ford) and assist in settling disputes and warranty issues.

We saw a little bit of this in '99 when Bill Franco was travelling about troubleshooting the original "vibe". He was a nice guy, well trained, competent, and seem to have a feel for what everone involved was going through. The owners liked him, the dealers...well, I dunno how they felt but part of me doesn't care..., and Ford/SVT seemed to listen to him (I'm hoping). Maybe that model is too techie but it's close.

Wow. What a dream :).


I don't particularly care to be admonished by a system administrator over an issue about my purchase or interaction with other owners.

If FORD SVT are such hot dogs then let them respond to issues on this form.

Amen to that last part.


Greg: Thanks for a great way to vent our feelings.

Kudos!



SVT: Thanks for car that kept me from buying a C5.

Brother, halleujah! I was >< that close in '99. I've loved every mile since then, good and bad (three (3) recalls, folks, and a bunch of TSBs :) ). No regrets.

Thanks for making C5 a target designation ;).

[Greg@SVTOA]

I got an e-mail from Cobra40- and I just want to clarify- I did not say you guys should not post your comments here, just so we are clear on that- if you have a rant, go for it. I wasn't trying to admonish anyone, I was taking part in the discussion. I posted what I posted as an individual, not a representative of the company. I suppose I walk a fine line here, but for the record, I buy Fords by choice and I pay the same prices as any other retail customer. I have always had them send me those surveys, and the dealerships I have dealt with seem to take those dealer surveys very seriously- this has been my own experience.

I have not edited a single word of my original post- if you read it- it says "Nobody here is telling you that you can't post your feelings"

Does not say somebody won't respond however... :D

I guess I'm a little confused by the replies as to the tone towards me- it seems some of you are upset about my reply, but then you go on to thank me for the forum, so I'm not sure??
:confused:

Tone is hard to guage on the web. I'm going to assume it's all good unless one of you says otherwise. You SHOULD post your feelings, and other should respond. I don't want anyone to feel they should not post comments here. I assure you others are reading this forum, people who do count.
I posted my response to add to the discussion, that's all- from the perspective of another Ford owner. I have purchased at least 17 new Fords since 1984, and some have been excellent and some not so excellent.

There some folks who have posted highly critical comments about the cars as well as the company, I have not edited or removed those comments, look for yourself.

You people have laid out some serious cash for these cars, you have every right to expect the best in terms of quality and performance.

[trmn8er]

OK, I just read throgh this "Survey" thread. So now I can comment!

My Cobra has proven more than I expected when I purchased it based on the spec sheet alone. I felt I could read between the lines and I knew this would be a historical vehicle. Hope I live long enough to see that come true!

I use my Cobra for the same things most others use theirs for - high performance driving and/or just cruising knowing you got "the power."

I expected a few little problems with the car, but I haven't had any. Are you guys aware that the C5 has a national recall going on now! All cars have some problems. A 400HP car is bound to have some "charater". I hope some of what I've read is some owners just a little too obsessive.

I also race my Cobra in SCCA SoloII autocross events. Of course this is a nationally known organization that many car manufacturers have catered to in the past and present. The Dodge Neon ACR comes to mind. Many foriegn car makers play in this grassroots racing arena also.

Honda's S2000, BMW's M series and the new Mini-Cooper, Audi TT, Volkswagen GTI's, Porsche Boxters, etc, etc. race and get national press coverage (for those who follow it!).

My point is that I see a lot of expensive performance cars race on Sunday 8 months of the year. I see owners taking pride in their vehicles and are proud to race them. I can't recall anybody talking about how their warranty would be voided by autocrossing their BMW or Honda or Dodge Neon. I know of no bolt on mod that is considered fatal on these cars.

Cold air intakes, MAF sensors, throttle bodies, computers, headers, cat-backs are quite common. Not to mention the suspension mods like stiffer springs and struts/shocks, camber plates and DOT race tires are a must.

Everybody in the performance world is doing things to their car. And without a lot of problems, mainly due to factory, dealer and aftermarket support.

MM&FF was given an '03 Cobra by SVT and told to "Do your tricks and see what you can get out of her!" So the first sanctioned pulley mod was done. The Lightning pulley was put on and 14.5 lbs of boost appeared magically. Wonder who planted that seed in our head? I'm sure SVT might have something to say about that.

I say SVT and Ford shouldn't play both sides while sitting on the fence. Spend some of your research money on performance upgrade kits offered through the dealers or selected performance shops. Tell us what is safe to do! Don't come in after the fact and say, "Well, you shouldn't have done that! No warranty for you!"

Dodge's new Neon SRT4, due for release within the next month or so, comes standard with 215HP and 265 lb. ft. torque from a 2.4 liter four cylinder. Fairly impressive. But they are also offering performance modification kits in three stages, going up to 280HP. Why doesn't SVT do something like that. Many other manufacturers do.

If your going to build a "Terminator" in todays market, we need to be able to help. That is what the 'Enthusiast' is all about.

Let us know what is best for our cars and your reputation. How much air can we let in, how fast can we spin the blower, what's the limit on boost, how far can the engine be reved, etc. Full exhaust with headers and cats should be a no brainer.

Leave the long block and blower alone. Just let us bolt on some stuff in our garages on Saturday!

The 2003 Cobra is great and will have a place in automotive history. But any mass producted car has compromises. We, on the board, want to get that little extra out and make our car unique to ourslves. Let us do it without holding us hostage to the warranty game.

[dennish]

I think termin8ter say's it best. Ford should let the SVT people give reasonable paramiters to assist us in eeking out just a little. After all not every one can afford upgrades, and this is how we differentiate each car.

My beef is that the EPA has snuck in and clamped what I call my "rights". I want long tube headers and a full 2.5 exhaust and I will probably do it. It sounds way too cool to pass up. A Cobra should have a harry sound, not LOUD and stupid, we've all heard those cars, but when you have long or even short tube headers, the motor sounds so good right there at the door, pulling through the slow spots around people, it's awsome. We deserve that, and Ford should sell it to us. My brothers Big Block Vett sounds soo cool I can't bare it.

I personally don't think Ford should pay for the risk of smaller pullies and chip makers, and if you're going to do it, you better have the bucks to fix it.

I even wrote to Eaton before my car came in and asked for advice on a pulley that would give me just an inch or so, not 8 more LBS.

They were quick to respond that they "could not advise me at all" but they certainly understood.

As far as quality and problems, I have nothing to complain about. Yes there have been a few, but you have to remember man made it, and stuff gets missed. My dealer kisses my ass when I go there, and they fixed me right up each time. The manager even keeps the keys so the "hotdogs" don't even get a chance to abuse my car.

I agree MM&FF did let the cat out of the bag, and I'm shocked to see how honest they were about there assignment having come from Ford staff. These people are walking a fine line and it's high time we got answers about just what we can or can not do responsibly.

In closing just remember, this is my third Mustang...85-86 & 91, along with 2 Tran/Ams and one Corvette and let me tell you there ain't nothing finer than my Cobra. These cars are fabulous right out of the box, and I'm satisfied.

I just wish it sounded better, and I can't stand knowing there is 35HP choked up in my EPA regulated exhaust system. Headers and big mufflers has always been the way to go, and yet I have to be afraid of my warranty? That's BS folks. :huh: :bna :bna :bna